Dear Anand,
Writing Malayalam in English script is pretty tiresome. Let me do it in English.
Sorry for that. Let us start. Tell me what sorts of improvements to be done.
Writing Malayalam in English script is pretty tiresome. Let me do it in English.
Sorry for that. Let us start. Tell me what sorts of improvements to be done.
1)Why do u think this mode of diagnosis is relevant in this era where u can diagnose almost any thing by objective hi-tech tests. Because u r also diagnosing a degenerated hip joint / a weak pancreatic function / a stone in kidney etc which is also approachable with high precision using machines. Leave the cost part
Patient comes with the blood report saying “hemoglobin is perfect”. But you find all the signs of “pandu”. You treat for “pandu” and the patient gets better.
This scenario is very common. The reason is high tech diagnostics are excellent, but sometimes they don’t do what we need. In the above case, if they had test the “motility” of the hemoglobin as well they would have seen the difference!
Reason number two. You may see the final effect and target organ/tissue of the disease in the high tech diagnostics. The source organ/tissue of the disease could still be left unchecked and undetected. Tight neck muscles in migraine is very common. When treated the spinal muscles for a small amount of time, a case diagnosed with epilepsy completely cured! Many “gulma” cases which couldn’t be diagnosed with high tech diagnostics, finally labeled with “psychiatric states” have been treated and cured with simple “direct ayurvedic diagnostic and therapeutic approaches”!
2)What is the unique advantage of this method in respect to drug selection, diagnosis of any specific condition which is otherwise unapproachable by the usual interrogations and tests ?
Tongue diagnosis is one among the eight mentioned in Ayurveda. The advantage is that you see the source reasons and processes, organs/tissues/areas to be attended to. A weak liver can result in low appetite, constipation, head aches, anemia, period problems, hormone upsets, and many other things. Grouping them and dealing them with “ayurvedic multi-drug therapy” could be taxing in many ways.
Number two: This is faster than the interrogation methods. In the first 1-2 minutes the clinician can talk about the source imbalance. Usually in the clinic what you receive from the patient is “the translation of the interpretation of the translation of the interpretation … of the real disease condition.” This can often be misleading. Patient may be worried about the headache, but not bothered about the gall bladder imbalance which is the source. You treat an amenorrhea for six months, then you realize it is a specific organ or emotional situation. You can see what is happening in your body through tongue.
3)Is it just an expansion of jihwa pareeksha in ashtasthanapareeksha or a devise which is non classical and novel
next set after some time
Patient comes with the blood report saying “hemoglobin is perfect”. But you find all the signs of “pandu”. You treat for “pandu” and the patient gets better.
This scenario is very common. The reason is high tech diagnostics are excellent, but sometimes they don’t do what we need. In the above case, if they had test the “motility” of the hemoglobin as well they would have seen the difference!
Reason number two. You may see the final effect and target organ/tissue of the disease in the high tech diagnostics. The source organ/tissue of the disease could still be left unchecked and undetected. Tight neck muscles in migraine is very common. When treated the spinal muscles for a small amount of time, a case diagnosed with epilepsy completely cured! Many “gulma” cases which couldn’t be diagnosed with high tech diagnostics, finally labeled with “psychiatric states” have been treated and cured with simple “direct ayurvedic diagnostic and therapeutic approaches”!
2)What is the unique advantage of this method in respect to drug selection, diagnosis of any specific condition which is otherwise unapproachable by the usual interrogations and tests ?
Tongue diagnosis is one among the eight mentioned in Ayurveda. The advantage is that you see the source reasons and processes, organs/tissues/areas to be attended to. A weak liver can result in low appetite, constipation, head aches, anemia, period problems, hormone upsets, and many other things. Grouping them and dealing them with “ayurvedic multi-drug therapy” could be taxing in many ways.
Number two: This is faster than the interrogation methods. In the first 1-2 minutes the clinician can talk about the source imbalance. Usually in the clinic what you receive from the patient is “the translation of the interpretation of the translation of the interpretation … of the real disease condition.” This can often be misleading. Patient may be worried about the headache, but not bothered about the gall bladder imbalance which is the source. You treat an amenorrhea for six months, then you realize it is a specific organ or emotional situation. You can see what is happening in your body through tongue.
3)Is it just an expansion of jihwa pareeksha in ashtasthanapareeksha or a devise which is non classical and novel
next set after some time
It is. I am following Dr Vasanth Lad’s picture of tongue. This is simple -mirror image of the inverted trunk superimposed on the tongue. Through clinical trials and further reading in the past five years it is now much more accurate. Chinese do a type of this. I have heard of an Ayurvedic doctor in north of India –near Banaras, diagnosing through “akriti”. By the time patient sits down, he starts prescribing. This is based on the study/observation of the body and movements.
On 8/3/03 5:05 AM, "Dr,Anand.PK.V." <suriakanth@sancharnet.in> wrote:
Dear ramaprasad
answer me in different sittings taking ur own time
my questions for the readers are
1)Why do u think this mode of diagnosis is relevant in this era where u can diagnose almost any thing by objective hi-tech tests. Because u r also diagnosing a degenerated hip joint / a weak pancreatic function / a stone in kidney etc which is also approchable with high lprecision using mechines. Leave the cost part
2)What is the unique advantage of this method in respect to drug selection, diagnosis of any specific condition which is otherwise unapproachable by the usual interrogations and tests ?
3)Is it just an expansion of jihwa pareeksha in ashtasthanapareeksha or a devise which is non classical and novel
next set after some time
Dear Anand,
The following is my response and your questions.
Thanks,
Rama Prasad
On 10/3/03 2:56 AM, "Dr,Anand.PK.V." <suriakanth@sancharnet.in> wrote:
# tell me what is motility of heamoglobin
It is a new concept which is not present. You know what the motility of sperm is. I mean inactive hemoglobin. Quantity is there, but quality is not there.
#Ayurvedic multidrug therapy -- did u mean the convetional dosha dooshy diagnosis and the big prescitpions are sifferent from u r system
A.M.T is the regular ayurvedic therapeutic approach. I mean Ayurveda has already shrunk into an Indian herbal approach. It is no more holistic. It is no more comprehensive. Patient and the doctor want to reduce the treatments into herbal formulations! It is neither holistic nor comprehensive. If we think it is, we are in total delusion.
I am slowly turning away from the above approach of “everything can be dealt with ayurvedic formulations and diet”. Example – an female Indian patient with pale white parched tongue, underneath brick red colour. Swollen, teeth-marked and congested looking approached me with her husband. It means her body is very cold, but inside she feels very hot, sleeplessness, bad circulation, and finally arthritis. My question was about her unhappiness in Sydney, the reason for her grief and why she represses everything. She said she doesn’t like Sydney, none to talk, wants go home, to India. Of course there are many things I haven’t mentioned here –but these are the more prominent ones.
Now there are few different approaches here you can take. Going back to India and its repercussions or changing the view to the new place or making more friends getting a cheaper phone card to India and staying in touch with her relatives. She also needs to talk about her grief and other emotional issues with a good counselor or psychotherapist (“Vagbhata”). She also needs to find something she really enjoys or can enjoy (to reduce the coldness of the body) plus exercise to sweat on a regular basis.
These are the some of the suggestions I gave. This approach works. If I can communicate this can change her life, rather than controlling her arthritis. Arthritis is a sign that tells her life force (rakta) is completely suppressed (vata kopa).
#Do u believe this method will be sufficient to diagnose almost all conditions
No.
#Any limitations in the diagnostic area for this
Personal limitations, which is applicable to any human being is one limitation. Lack of experience is another. Absence of the ability to get into the ‘antaratman’ of the patient is another one.
My new questins----
1. Is it a spatial representation of organs u look for in the toungue? Like we have learned about the various representative areas in brain.
Yes.
2. What are the things u r looking for in toung? A discolouration/a raised edge area/a skin lesion/a geographical pattern/ a row skin or ulcerated area / the food debris and waste deposits - add if there is any other -, If u r saying all the above please tell a list like ulcerated area for liver inflamation / raised edge for growth in a part of the body ilke that . so that we get some examples
Alignment, shape, colour, thickness, edges, texture, surface and marks are the eight aspects I am looking for. Alignment – neuromuscular, mental, emotional balance; Shape – approach to and view on life, lifestyle, diet style; Colour – Ojas; Thickness – quality and quantity of tissues and ama; Edges – vascular strength, peripheral circulation; texture – strength/energy of the body; surface – specific organs and systems; marks (such as cuts, cracks, ulcers, wrinkles, even or uneven etc.) for nature of the disease (vata, pitta or kapha)
3. Can this be statistically tested like the association between leukoplaquia and oral malignancy ?
I haven’t reached that level. Will need more study. Need to see more tongues.
4. Can u send some pictures showing an example
I will prepare. Next time.
5. once u diagnose the rest is same as a usual ayurvedic prescription ??
Usual ayurvedic prescription is discussed above –it is just Ayurvedic herbology. You will be fed up with this after a while. If herbs can fix all problems, we could have done that. It is not the fact.
Life – Mind – Body - I usually discuss about these three areas. How mind represent the life and body reflects the activities of mind. What we see in the body is just a reflection of the imbalances in mind and life. If necessary I start with treating the body through decoctions and powders.
6. If not how this thing is going to help in drug selection
n. a.
It is a new concept which is not present. You know what the motility of sperm is. I mean inactive hemoglobin. Quantity is there, but quality is not there.
#Ayurvedic multidrug therapy -- did u mean the convetional dosha dooshy diagnosis and the big prescitpions are sifferent from u r system
A.M.T is the regular ayurvedic therapeutic approach. I mean Ayurveda has already shrunk into an Indian herbal approach. It is no more holistic. It is no more comprehensive. Patient and the doctor want to reduce the treatments into herbal formulations! It is neither holistic nor comprehensive. If we think it is, we are in total delusion.
I am slowly turning away from the above approach of “everything can be dealt with ayurvedic formulations and diet”. Example – an female Indian patient with pale white parched tongue, underneath brick red colour. Swollen, teeth-marked and congested looking approached me with her husband. It means her body is very cold, but inside she feels very hot, sleeplessness, bad circulation, and finally arthritis. My question was about her unhappiness in Sydney, the reason for her grief and why she represses everything. She said she doesn’t like Sydney, none to talk, wants go home, to India. Of course there are many things I haven’t mentioned here –but these are the more prominent ones.
Now there are few different approaches here you can take. Going back to India and its repercussions or changing the view to the new place or making more friends getting a cheaper phone card to India and staying in touch with her relatives. She also needs to talk about her grief and other emotional issues with a good counselor or psychotherapist (“Vagbhata”). She also needs to find something she really enjoys or can enjoy (to reduce the coldness of the body) plus exercise to sweat on a regular basis.
These are the some of the suggestions I gave. This approach works. If I can communicate this can change her life, rather than controlling her arthritis. Arthritis is a sign that tells her life force (rakta) is completely suppressed (vata kopa).
#Do u believe this method will be sufficient to diagnose almost all conditions
No.
#Any limitations in the diagnostic area for this
Personal limitations, which is applicable to any human being is one limitation. Lack of experience is another. Absence of the ability to get into the ‘antaratman’ of the patient is another one.
My new questins----
1. Is it a spatial representation of organs u look for in the toungue? Like we have learned about the various representative areas in brain.
Yes.
2. What are the things u r looking for in toung? A discolouration/a raised edge area/a skin lesion/a geographical pattern/ a row skin or ulcerated area / the food debris and waste deposits - add if there is any other -, If u r saying all the above please tell a list like ulcerated area for liver inflamation / raised edge for growth in a part of the body ilke that . so that we get some examples
Alignment, shape, colour, thickness, edges, texture, surface and marks are the eight aspects I am looking for. Alignment – neuromuscular, mental, emotional balance; Shape – approach to and view on life, lifestyle, diet style; Colour – Ojas; Thickness – quality and quantity of tissues and ama; Edges – vascular strength, peripheral circulation; texture – strength/energy of the body; surface – specific organs and systems; marks (such as cuts, cracks, ulcers, wrinkles, even or uneven etc.) for nature of the disease (vata, pitta or kapha)
3. Can this be statistically tested like the association between leukoplaquia and oral malignancy ?
I haven’t reached that level. Will need more study. Need to see more tongues.
4. Can u send some pictures showing an example
I will prepare. Next time.
5. once u diagnose the rest is same as a usual ayurvedic prescription ??
Usual ayurvedic prescription is discussed above –it is just Ayurvedic herbology. You will be fed up with this after a while. If herbs can fix all problems, we could have done that. It is not the fact.
Life – Mind – Body - I usually discuss about these three areas. How mind represent the life and body reflects the activities of mind. What we see in the body is just a reflection of the imbalances in mind and life. If necessary I start with treating the body through decoctions and powders.
6. If not how this thing is going to help in drug selection
n. a.
Dear Anand,
Somehow your letter went down to the bottom of the inbox. Discovered recently!
Warm regards,
Rama Prasad
Somehow your letter went down to the bottom of the inbox. Discovered recently!
Warm regards,
Rama Prasad
# I know that u may be using other tools like Naadi, doshalakshanas, modern investingtions, intorrogations etc altogether with this to diagnos a specific condition. All these together may bbe building up a multidimentional picture of the illness and the patient for us. how are these symptoms being elicited and analyised collectively to make a diagnosis.? (does a sign in jihwa compliment any other in naddee pareeksha or dosha - I want your own example) like a pale toungue + fast pulse + and reduced hb% + clinical signs makes a diagnosis of pandu.
A: It happened yesterday. A female 31 year old, with 2 children: from the tongue the following was obvious and concluded –the right lumber area is tight/sore; upper back is stiff (esp. Left shoulder/blade); feels hot inside; right side of the intestine is affected (muscular spasms, inflammation etc); eroded/reddish tongue indicates chronic problem > frustration/unresolved issues/inflammation; diagnosis > chronic but mild inflammation of small/large intestine and left upper back muscles; chronic –the first conclusion a kind of inflammation related to intestine and some muscles of the upper body; diet > alkaline and light, light meals, skip dinners; herbs > gandharvahastadi / punarnavadi; lifestyle > more exercise to sweat; more relaxation of any kind; counseling to deal with the frustration; regular massage for the entire back.
I think this much information from the tongue is enough to start with. The interesting thing is it takes only 2 minutes for this.
Then I asked her to tell me what she thought. She elaborated on each and everything. She mentioned about the diagnosis which is IBS, history of appendicectomy, other problems such as diarrhea, low energy etc. She receives massage regularly.
I chose Gandharvahastadi.
I use signs, symptoms, doshaadi, modern investigations, interrogation (discussion) etc as I am still in the process of learning it. I use them to understand the tongue more.
I think this much information from the tongue is enough to start with. The interesting thing is it takes only 2 minutes for this.
Then I asked her to tell me what she thought. She elaborated on each and everything. She mentioned about the diagnosis which is IBS, history of appendicectomy, other problems such as diarrhea, low energy etc. She receives massage regularly.
I chose Gandharvahastadi.
I use signs, symptoms, doshaadi, modern investigations, interrogation (discussion) etc as I am still in the process of learning it. I use them to understand the tongue more.
# Can u list some examples for the diagnosis of a specific condition, for which Jihwa pareeksha is very crucial and important. It shouled also be a situation that other methods of diagnosis is verymuch likely to be a failures.
A: You should take the basic principles in Ayurveda to explain a disease. Everything is Jwara. Jwara is disease and healing. No Jwara, no inflammation, no healing. That is why Hippocrates said, give me a fever I can cure any disease. Increased acidity > inflammation.
Finding out the location of inflammation the next phase. Colour of tongue says whether the body has inflammation. Marks on it indicates the location. Now diagnosis is easy. You can be very specific many times as esophagitis or colitis or hepatitis. But, to say Hepatitis A or B, I don’t know! Still learning.
A lot should be written on this topic.
Finding out the location of inflammation the next phase. Colour of tongue says whether the body has inflammation. Marks on it indicates the location. Now diagnosis is easy. You can be very specific many times as esophagitis or colitis or hepatitis. But, to say Hepatitis A or B, I don’t know! Still learning.
A lot should be written on this topic.
# How the signs of dosha sthithi is known from the jihwa - can u enlist some examples - like a vatha paithika naadi will be fast and sarpa gati, a kapha naadi will be mandooka gathi etc.
I don’t use nadi. I haven’t seen anyone relating nadi to akriti.
# Dont you feel that this method is not communicable to a student in the conventional mode of education - if so what is the best method for its teaching / learning ? A gurukula systyem ?, A self developed system based on very broad and general guidlines ? or any thing else like a inner light ?
I don’t. You can easily teach this to a student. First we need to develop a common language. It is important to understand what is meant. This may take time.
Once both have a common language, then whatever taught is meaningful, will make sense. Communication happens.
Once both have a common language, then whatever taught is meaningful, will make sense. Communication happens.
# Why this looks like a very irrational and intutive system ? is it really so ? is it something which is achievable by a yogic meditation etc ?
When you don’t understand, it is irrational to you. When it make sense it rational. It is thus both rational and irrational in that sense!
If you want, you can achieve anything through meditation and meditative activities. To meditate first you need to practice the prerequisites – the first six limbs, otherwise meditation doesn’t happen or your meditation will be wrong. Result also will be wrong. All the above are practical, logical and commonsensical.
If you want, you can achieve anything through meditation and meditative activities. To meditate first you need to practice the prerequisites – the first six limbs, otherwise meditation doesn’t happen or your meditation will be wrong. Result also will be wrong. All the above are practical, logical and commonsensical.
# If this is really useful why this is not as popular as naddee pareeksha etc ?
None explored it. None taught it. It didn’t get popular. That doesn't mean it is useless or does it? Our style of tradition is “this is how we do it, we don’t want to change it, even though if there is something better or more convenient.” Healing thus became tradition oriented, not patient oriented.
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